The Power of Conversation

In an age where meaningful dialogue can often be overshadowed by polarization, the Philosophy Club at a school in Melbourne, Australia stands out as a beacon of thoughtful conversation. Founded by two passionate students, Audrey and Alison, this club emerged from the vibrant discussions of their Theory of Knowledge (TOK) class, where open-mindedness and critical thinking were encouraged. What began as a simple idea to create a safe space for philosophical inquiry has blossomed into a dynamic community where students explore complex topics, embrace vulnerability, and learn to navigate differing viewpoints with respect and curiosity. The following interview delves into the origins of the Philosophy Club, the journey of its founders, and the transformative impact it has had on its members, highlighting how fostering genuine conversations can empower young minds and create a sense of belonging.

Doline: I am very happy to have this conversation with you. I think you are two brilliant individuals who have taken the initiative to make a difference. I first met you last year in Year 11 in our Theory of Knowledge (TOK) class, and I had the privilege of witnessing your growth and development. What is particularly impressive is how you have applied TOK concepts and our conversational learning model to create something beautiful that has benefited many other students: The Philosophy Club. Can you talk about it? What is it, and how did it all start?

Audrey: I really enjoyed the kinds of discussions we had in TOK class, as we were enabled to be open and free to speak our minds. This inspired me to consider the ways in which we can create spaces for such conversations to happen. As philosophy has always been a passion for both me and Alison, I approached her, and we started talking about it. 

Alison: We actually had our first conversation before our TOK class as we were waiting for you to arrive. We talked about the impact we could have by creating a space where we could discuss issues that matter to us, have healthy disagreements, and learn from one another. We realized the agency we had in starting such a club, and we suddenly got very excited about the idea. We began thinking about the logistics, possible topics of discussion, how to promote the club, and whom to email. We then got started pretty quickly. Our first invitation was sent to Year 10 and 11 students, and we were pleasantly surprised to see a lot of students responding and joining our first club meeting.

Doline: What did you want to see happening from your first session?

Audrey: We knew we wanted to avoid talking about typical theoretical models in philosophy. Instead, we wanted to foster and engage people in conversations with a philosophical mindset and approach. Just like in TOK, our main objective was to create a safe space for genuine conversations, while asking questions that challenge people’s preconceptions. However, our first session was not too successful because club-goers did not start talking. We had to reflect: what were we missing?

Alison: I remember having a conversation with you about how to make people feel safe to share their views when surrounded by their peers in a new space. You suggested that as the leaders of the club, we should be the first ones to open up and share some of our personal views and beliefs and open the discussion to the group, which we did.

Audrey: Particularly, the topic of love was the breakthrough. Since the discussion on love naturally required everyone to be vulnerable, we tried to model vulnerability ourselves by opening up our understanding of love, which encouraged others to do the same. We also listened to everyone’s opinions and feelings without judgement, which facilitated the space to be safe and convey the message that everyone's opinions and values matter.

Doline: That’s certainly a great topic and by leading the way, you’re modeling the environment and behavior you want to see. I also know that once you have a great interactive session, the pressure is on to keep the momentum going and make sure that your audience continues to rise. What happened next and what else did you cover?

Alison: Because people our age are often trying to figure out who they are and how they relate to others, we thought having a session focusing on different personality types could be very attractive. So, we introduced the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator (MBTI) test, which can help people to assess their personality by testing its different dimensions. This was such a great session and what was interesting about it was that some students didn't know about terms like introvert and extrovert and what they entailed. I think it helped them become a bit more conscious of the nuances across different personalities, which made the conversations very open-minded and interesting. As some of us were testing each other's personalities for the first time, we were also able to celebrate these discoveries and how creepily accurate they were.

Doline: It's almost like you were “allowing” students to be themselves as they’re discovering their personality types.

Audrey: Yes, discussions on MBTI unleashed everyone’s curiosity and spirit of exploration in discovering more about themselves and certainly “allowed” them to affirm who they are. But we also made efforts to encourage everyone to reflect on the fact that this is only a theory and a fun test to take, which does not mean that we need to box ourselves into specific categories as indicated by the test. You can feel one thing today and develop into something else. It’s the idea of remaining open-minded and knowing that you are always growing and changing, while accepting the same fact about others during daily interactions.

Doline: I like the idea of “not boxing yourself into categories,” but rather being and becoming always. Was there something you did not want this space to be?

Alison: We didn’t want this conversational space to be a place where the objective is to prove people wrong.

Audrey: We wanted this space to be a place where we reflect on our lives and values and see how they affect our attitudes and actions. We ended our last session on introspection as the leaders, in light of encouraging club-goers to continuously reflect on who they are, which hopefully propels them to have meaningful conversations with people who think differently.

Doline: What happens when there are strong disagreements that could turn to potential conflict? What have you learned?

Alison: As soon as you tell someone that they're wrong or that they can't think a certain way, you risk cutting off the conversation. It’s common for people to attach their personal ideologies to their identity, so when we “attack” someone’s ideas, it can feel like they are being attacked at a personal level, making it easy to become defensive and for the conversion to become unproductive. Understanding this helps you engage with curiosity rather than judgement, and instead of criticizing people for their diverse opinions, we can ask why they believe what they believe in. If we model this as leaders, we show others how to approach these kinds of conversations in a way that honors everybody’s humanity. 

Audrey: We also made a point to avoid responding “no” to opinions offered and I am very grateful we were able to do so. We always acknowledged the person’s view and ask them to tell us more. In an increasingly polarized world that resorts to defense of one’s own opinions by default, we can improve this by talking to one another, especially when we strongly disagree. The best moment in the club is when we had “controversies.” We were excited because that’s when we learn more about everyone’s beliefs and that interests me.

Doline: This reminds me of something, Audrey. Last year a diverse group of Year 11 students, including yourself, came to speak to Year 7 and 8 students about inclusion and what it means. You talked about the importance of respecting people's choice to speak their first language at school. In a Padlet interaction with the audience, one student said that “you should only speak English because you are in Australia and you have lived here for years.” I was looking at you, ready to jump in, which I did later on, but the way you handled it was very beautiful. Tell us how you felt.

Audrey: To be honest, I was expecting this kind of comment, and I was happy to see that people felt comfortable to share their opinion openly. For me, I saw this as an opportunity to share my view and expand on people’s knowledge. TOK often reminds me of this critical thinking and curious mindset in such moments. Instead of feeling offended, I chose to be curious about why people feel the way they feel and expand my own knowledge.

Also, having learned from you, your experiences, and ways of dealing with those who think differently, has empowered me to respond in a way that starts a conversation because I understand that there are people out there who hold different views to me. I try not to take what they say personally because I know it’s not about me. Rather, it’s about what they think they know and don’t know, which makes me want to hear people's stories. I am also blessed to be surrounded by supportive friends and family who are uplifting and have helped me to get to this place of not being offended by such things and be curious instead.

Alison: I really admire your ability to put something so challenging for so many people in such a positive light.

Doline. I couldn’t agree more with you, Alison. It’s admirable! The choice you make at this moment is empowering because you take control of the situation by choosing curiosity, which somehow allows you to distance yourself because you choose to pursue knowledge instead. It’s powerful!

I wonder how different you are now that you've had the experience of creating and leading a space for conversations on hot topics?

Alison: It's similar to the impact that TOK has had on us. In TOK class, we discuss different perspectives, and we're encouraged to become more open-minded. We’re using the same model in the club. The more people share, the better. In this way, it has taught me how to listen better. The most beautiful thing you see in such a space is seeing people becoming more confident as they start to feel heard.

On a personal level, it has changed the way I approach conversations. If I make a point, I am prepared to engage with people who might offer a different perspective on or disagree with my point. With that barrier softened, your brain breaks down the stubbornness with which you might hold on to your own ideas, so you can hear out the human on the other side. This ultimately changes the way I want to have a conversation.

Audrey: I'm becoming more open-minded about other people's opinions. If someone has a different idea or even disagrees with me, I'm willing to listen and I don't get easily offended. These conversations showed me different perspectives and lenses in understanding the world. Through this experience, I bolstered my own core values and opened up my worldview. Most importantly, I learned to be humble and remain curious about what I don’t know. I have also become more mindful in ways of conveying my ideas because my audience may see things differently to me or may feel offended if I approach the conversation a certain way. So, I think carefully about my word choices while expressing my ideas, especially if I disagree.

Doline: What would you like to say to educators around the world who will be reading this that I haven’t asked you?

Alison: Having a conversational learning model like the ones we’ve had in TOK is powerful and important for a student’s development and growth. With the experience we’ve had in our Philosophy Club, I’m inclined to say that this has literally reshaped our brains. The way we choose to have conversations with people can alter our thought patterns, so working that muscle of open-mindedness and listening and welcoming diverse opinions, identities, and values is very valuable.

I think we're losing the ability to have face-to-face conversations as we’re getting used to doing things without physically talking to someone. In real life, you're listening, you're taking things in, you're present, and you don't have the anonymity you have when you're behind a screen. You have to be very conscious of how you're receiving the other person - the effort this takes and the things you learn from it can actually be pretty satisfying!

Also, being exposed to different perspectives not only teaches us to become better listeners, but also guides us towards sharing our own perspectives more confidently. It’s a lot easier to be what you can see, so having role-models to learn from is crucial. Becoming that role-model yourself is a wonderful achievement, particularly when you realize the positive impact others have had on you is something you can reciprocate. This is so empowering, particularly when you get to make meaningful connections along the way.

Audrey: I will add onto Alison’s points. As we saw a rising trend in journaling thoughts before bed, I realized that the conversations we were trying to facilitate in the Philosophy Club are similar to the process of writing down your thoughts except you're being heard, and that’s an amazing feeling. These conversations and collaborations also bring us closer. We can recognize pieces of ourselves in everyone else around us, and then we realize that we’re a reflection of everyone around us, so we become less judgmental of other people. I am learning that we are more similar than what we often perceive. 

Doline: It’s a feeling of belonging that you’re creating by talking to one another. People see themselves in each other and feel that they’re not alone, even asking a simple question can allow others to feel that they’re not alone in their thinking.

Alison: That’s right! Before, it was so easy to think I was alone in my experiences, but now I feel so much more in touch with my peers and wider community. I not only want to challenge and grow myself, but I also want to see my community grow.

Audrey: I was never the student who would raise their hand in class and express their own ideas because I lacked the confidence to do so. Being introduced to TOK and leading the Philosophy Club helped me grow into this person who is more secure and confident in expressing myself and taking on other people's ideas. We’ve also gained more leadership skills along the way by encouraging a variety of perspectives in conversations. I'm very grateful for this experience and I am very keen to help other people to get to that point.

Doline: Could you finish this prompt: Dear Teacher….

Alison: Dear Teacher, we are grateful for you and for the power you have when you recognize how profoundly you can influence us students. When we see you as someone who is capable, passionate, accepting, and non-judgmental, we feel safe in the classroom to ask questions and voice our opinions. Teaching is such an honorable profession, and it is a privilege to be able to learn from you. What’s even better is when the relationship between us is one of encouragement, inclusion, and mutual respect. With this, and with a healthy dose of challenge, the young people you are helping shape will be well-equipped to give their best to themselves and to the world.

Audrey: Dear Teacher, creating a safe space for all, so students feel safe to express themselves, is very helpful because it’s liberating. If students feel safe, they will be able to surpass their fear of making mistakes and being judged. When you are authentic and show vulnerability, you “tell” us that it’s ok to be vulnerable, you show us courage, self-compassion and self-love in action which makes learning more impactful. Like Alison mentioned earlier, we would like you to know the powerful impact you can have on us. A positive impact is one that can last forever, but a negative one is one that can scar us too.  

Doline: It makes me think about Maya Angelou's quote, “People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”

It was an absolute pleasure teaching you, and a great pleasure to sit down with both of you and have this conversation. Young people like you give me hope and remind me why I do what I do. Keep doing good around you; you are certainly making a difference.